Car is not any better. 1 step forward/backward. Advice.

[89ARIES]

My thanks to Butch who was big help to me yesterday. We went to the junkyard yesterday where for $50, we scored an original 1989 K-Car engine wiring harmess
out of a mint 89 Reliant 2.5 that the owner had crashed on the freeway probably. Here is what we did on the car:

1. Put the scanner on the car. The 02 sensor was 100% dead. Replaced it.
2. Took a part of the wiring harness loom and replaced the section of wire in my car where near the valve cover. It is the place near the 02 sensor. The original
wire had been damaged and was partly severed and exposed.

Last night: That should have taken care of the problem, I hoped. The car seems to now have more power. The check engine light oddly enough isn't haywire. But, the intermitent bucking, surging, cutting out, and erratic idle is still creeping up. More unusual was that last night, after we replace the wiring loom, the car started running very rich, choking, popping. So, Butch put the scanner on and remarked he thought the engine had excellent compression. Except for the 02 sensor, all sensors weere working
and we were getting excellent vacuum. So, we replaced the O2 sensor, and the car only ran marginally better. But, at least I was able to see on the scanner that now
all systems seemed to be functioning. I drove home safely. Paid about $95 yesterday.

Today: Car was running fine, but then more erratic idle, bucking, and attempting cutting out was returning. Yet, the check engine light was not coming on. When I parked
the car at the church. I started revving it in park just to listen to the "exhuast" symptoms. I don't know if maybe I dislodged a piece of carbon or something, cause then it
suddenly started running real rich, erratic, stumbling a little, etc. I turned it off. I came back out three hours later, and it barely started. It did an uneven, erratic start-up with
smoke and running extremely rich again. I took me driving it hard 150 miles, even a burst up to 92mph in frustration, and now it seems to be the same again with only occasional
erratic idle and bucking, but the symptoms are unmistakenly there. It now has much more power than it did before and I found myself flying down the freeway at 75.

As for the erratic idle, we noticed something weird on the scanner. The O2 sensor would adjust the fuel to a rich condition as the idle dropped and got erratic, sometimes near
stalling, and then would lean it out and the idle would suddenly pick up, but it wouldn't stay center. Butch suggested I drive it for a while and let it cycle and adjust. Well, it
runs more to center I think when you floor the car up to 90 and drive it 100 miles, but it still isn't right.

With all this said, bear in mind I have dumped $1000s into this car and always done the oil changes. The engine has lots of power and seems to have no compression issues
or oil burning issues. Something is forcing it to stumble and run poorly at idle. This has been going on for 3 years now and I am ready to just throw my hands up. All the quitting
symptoms that seemed to happen out of nowhere for a year now happened either when the idle suddenly dropped into the tank or the engine cut out at 75-85 on the freeway. The symptoms seem to mirror each other. Roughness, vibration, or sudden near stall at idle, occasional surging, bucking, near cutting at high speeds.

I don't know what else to do. I may have to wait a year before I ever get the idle right, but at least have some good people here to help me. The only things I can think of to
try is:

1. Check that battery connection again.
2. Check the air control idle thing.
3. Test a computer
4. Replace all the wiring.
5. Replace or repair the exhaust
6. Run LUCAS oil treatment. Maybe carbon clogs are to blame.
7. Run more fuel cleaner.
8. Check for vacuum leaks.
9. Catalyitic Converter?

Try every damn thing over the next couple months, learn something about how to work on my car, and maybe something will fix itself.

This is so freaken annoying. I don't know where to start. Maybe a new catalytic converter?

The good news is I now have a much better feel for what certain things are called under my hood. I just don't have the money to buy 50-100 Chrysler sockets
and wrenches for every strange part.

[MyDodgeDip]

1. Do not throw parts at it. Unless the Cat is clogged, it's fine.
2. There are not 50-100 "Chrysler Sockets and wrenches", Regular ones will do just about everything.


Did you fix the vacuum leak in the booster yet? I thought there were multiple bad wires, not just the one to the 02 sensor.

[Pete in NH]

Hi Guy,

Sounds llike you and Butch did make some progress even though you had hoped for more. On your list Yes, look at number 2, the air control motor on the throttle body. in fact perhaps the whole throttle body unit could use some attention and a good cleaning. And as Mydodgedip suggested look into any vacuum leaks involving the brake booster.

Finally, with an over rich condition if the catalytic converter is not toast it soon will be. i believe you said your car has 200K miles on it so, the converter could be an issue again particually if it has been running over rich for a long period of time.

Perhaps you could start to aqquire a few tools like a 3/8 drive socket set. Many, many years ago i would buy a few Craftsmen pieces from Sears every few weeks until i had a basic set of tools. I don't know how good their quality is today but years ago they were very good and had a lifetime replacement.

[89ARIES]

Thanks. Well, as far as I can tell, the engine is fine, but something is disrupting the fuel delivery. I hadn't thought of this. I do constantly run my car
down to a quarter tank, sometimes lower. Maybe after 23 years, it might be a good idea to drop the tank and clean it out? I guess than also check catalytic converter.

[K-CAR_WAGON]

I think the suggestion is to maybe replace the AIC motor on the throttle body and clean the throttle body assembly (not remove the fuel tank). Maybe also replace the throttle position sensor? If your car is running too rich and you don't solve the rich mixture problem you will destroy a new cat if you install one at this point. I don't remember - what is the current status with you throttle plate assembly is on your car. I think your mechanic had welded a cracked unit back together or maybe you replaced it? How was the throttle plate assembly unit on the car that you removed the harness from in the junkyard?

[89ARIES]

The throttle body was taken from a junkyard and just swapped in 7 months ago during the $1000 tune-up. This was done by the family mechanic. This did
not get rid of the fuel symptom problems. It was cutting out before all this work. All his work did was slightly increase the power. Also, the dead oxyegn sensor
we removed was black. Can a weird car like this still get about 21mpg and be running rich and fouling up everything? And when I say rich, it seems to run richest
when it stumbles and you just start it up, yet sometimes it will start normally. All I know is that the fuel delivery sucks.

[89ARIES]

I'm sorry, what is a throttle plate assembly unit?

[89ARIES]

No, I did not fix the leak in the brake booster yet. My family mechanic said he would do it for $250. Brake power seems adequate, but I don't like the air leak sound. Its actually
been there about a year. He says the booster should get hard and the petal hard to apply, but that hasn't happened yet.

[89ARIES]

Yes. there have only been about a couple bad wires that we have found that I tried getting fixed. Also, have no idea what the condition of the wires down near the
exhaust are. I do know I still have an exposed starter ignition wire.

[K-CAR_WAGON]

I meant to say Throttle Body Assembly. Here is a link to an article on Allpar on the Throttle Body Assembly cleaning. But I don't think you want to try this yourself. When you had the unit replaced with a used unit, did the mechanic clean/rebuild the used unit and install a new AIS motor or did he just install the used unit as is?

http://www.allpar.com/fix/fuel/throttle ... index.html

I am not quite sure your prior cutting out issue is the same problem that you currently have. In the past you indicated that the cutting out was accompanied by an indication that you computer had lost power and reset.

Your current problem seems to be that you car is running rough, not idling properly, and is running too rich indicating a problem with your fuel control.